� > I can remember being logged on to a dumb terminal at university, ftping to a
� > site from my uni account, downloading a file to my account, and then later � > downloading from my account to my PC when I was home.
�
� Let me guess - KERMIT was involved?
��[PF=>MP]

Yes, on the home end I would have been using KERMIT (the terminal program)
to access my university account. ;)

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link PF 7-20-24 14:29
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

� MP> Found some utilities for the BBS that way, which was cheaper than the
� MP> long distance dial-up it would have required otherwise. I also remember � MP> needing to UUdecode some binaries before I could unarchive and use them. �
� I count the author of uudecode as a friend. :-) She
� makes a credible claim that this was the first form of
� "email attachment".
��[T=>MP]

It was the first form that I was aware of for sure. IIRC, there was some
kind of service, or site, where I had to use uudecode on files that were
not received via email, too. I may very well be remembering that wrong as
I am not sure why they'd need encoding if they were not transmitted via email or usenet.

� Even FidoNet was more or less dependent on the Internet
� ca 1991 for transferring data between Europe and North
� America.
��[T=>MP]

That I was not aware of but it makes perfect sense.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link T 7-21-24 12:53
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

� te> Perhaps in your personal experience you started hearing about it
� te> in 1995, but that doesn't mean that's when it started.
�
� From the beginning of this series of messages I had a feeling that
� there was something 'regional' related to the different perceptions
� and ideas that we all shared.
��[M=>T]

I am pretty certain there is, even within the same country. I have always lived in the same state in the same country, and my experience with "the internet" was that it "existed for home consumption" in the larger city I was living in at least 1993, but didn't yet exist for home users in the smaller town I moved to in 1997. That changed quickly but, even at work, those of us that were using 386s to access a mainframe, a time keeping system, and
MS-Mail didn't yet have internet access in 1997.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link M 7-20-24 23:20
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

In one of our courses they taught us about the "truck full of tapes"

Massive bandwidth, really bad latency though :)

connection. I had my own version of that where anything over about 20M warranted a trip into uni with a CD-RW or a zip disk.

You had it a bit better than I did... we didn't have any fancy geegaws for
data storage, just the floppies... I wasn't to flash at tracking stuff down back then either... Didn't really know where the resources were unless you crawled simtel or some such.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

It was the first form that I was aware of for sure. IIRC, there was some kind of service, or site, where I had to use uudecode on files that were not received via email, too. I may very well be remembering that wrong as I am not sure why they'd need encoding if they were not transmitted via email or usenet.

There were a lot of early systems out there that were 7bit... if you tried to push data through these you'd lose some. UUENCODEing made it all 7bit for
safe transfer. It was lossy though, a UUd file was larger than the original.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

On 22 Jul 2024 at 10:48a, Spectre pondered and said...

It was the first form that I was aware of for sure. IIRC, there was kind of service, or site, where I had to use uudecode on files that w not received via email, too. I may very well be remembering that wro I am not sure why they'd need encoding if they were not transmitted v email or usenet.

There were a lot of early systems out there that were 7bit... if you
tried to push data through these you'd lose some. UUENCODEing made it
all 7bit for safe transfer. It was lossy though, a UUd file was larger than the original.

Depends on what you're transferring. uuencode takes 8-bit
data and packs it into a 6-bit alphabet, in 60-column records,
preceded by a character count (encoded as a printing character)
and succeeded by a newline (so up to 62 characters, total).
That leaves up to 60 characters containing data, for a total
of 60*6=360 bits of data max per line, or 360/8=45 bytes; put
another way, 3 bytes packed into 4 characters, so 45 bytes per
60 character line.

So you've got a 25% efficiency loss for the encoding, plus the
count and line-break overhead, that's around over 3%. Call it
30% overhead relative to the source data.

But if you compress the original, and _then_ uuencode it, you
might come out ahead: if you're compression ratio is around 2:1,
then you're still smaller than the original by 20% or so.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

But if you compress the original, and _then_ uuencode it, you might
come out ahead: if you're compression ratio is around 2:1, then
you're still smaller than the original by 20% or so.

While I agree with your appraisal, effective 2:1 compression seemed to be pretty rare. Binaries and hard data didn't tend to compress as well as a
chunk of equivalent sized text. I don't remember getting beyond ~40% compression as a general rule, and small files didn't tend to compress as
well as larger ones.

Its kind of weird in a way, a lot of stuff was optimised for slow speed transmission, 2400bps or so.. so things tended to be fairly small, then you'd compress it to get it down further... worked point to point out of a BBS nicely, but then you go and add overhead to get through something like a 7bit mail server... signs of the times I guess. It was always the last link...
ISP or Uni or whatever it was you connected to, to home.. the weakest,
slowest link.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

But if you compress the original, and _then_ uuencode it, you might
come out ahead: if you're compression ratio is around 2:1, then

You've got me thinking about compression now..

The main front runners we had, probably like everyone else over time...

LHA/LHARC early on and not as efficient..

PKZIP most popular and had better compression than LHA variants.

ARJ less popular generally, but got a good run here for having better compression than early versions of PKZIP although they end up much the same later on.. Oddly, ARJ said that its default was to use maximum compression, but if you gave it the -JM switches asking for maximum compression you'd actually get a smaller archive.

SQZ, SqueezeIt gave exactly the same file size as ARJ a -jm but I just used
it to be contrary and had all the BBS archives converted to it :) It was
never popular anywhere else in my memory...

None of these would reliably get close to 2:1 compression though..

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Spectre wrote to tenser <=-

Its kind of weird in a way, a lot of stuff was optimised for slow speed transmission, 2400bps or so.. so things tended to be fairly small, then you'd compress it to get it down further...

Hard drive space was at a premium, too - I remember people switching
archivers to ARJ when it came out for a single-digit improvement over
PKZIP. Then, some people liked LHArc. Some people said to hell with it
and stuck with ARC. Back then, it made a material difference when your
perimary storage was an 80mb hard drive.




--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

On 22 Jul 2024 at 08:21p, Spectre pondered and said...

While I agree with your appraisal, effective 2:1 compression seemed to be pretty rare. Binaries and hard data didn't tend to compress as well as a chunk of equivalent sized text. I don't remember getting beyond ~40% compression as a general rule, and small files didn't tend to compress as well as larger ones.

Yeah. It depends very much on _what_ you're compressing
and how much overhead you're willing to tolerate. Still,
even if you only get 30%, you're about breaking even with
`uuencode`.

Its kind of weird in a way, a lot of stuff was optimised for slow speed transmission, 2400bps or so.. so things tended to be fairly small, then you'd compress it to get it down further... worked point to point out of
a BBS nicely, but then you go and add overhead to get through something like a 7bit mail server... signs of the times I guess. It was always
the last link... ISP or Uni or whatever it was you connected to, to
home.. the weakest, slowest link.

Yeah. People tend to forget that we had to contend with
7 bit systems, fixed records sizes, and all sorts of other
weird things that made interoperability hard. Our IBM
mainframe running VM/CMS used to eat the ends of lines that
were longer than 80 columns when transferring email (which
all had to be 7-bit clean, of course, as it would be
translated between ASCII and EBCDIC).

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 22 Jul 2024 at 06:53a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

Hard drive space was at a premium, too - I remember people switching
archivers to ARJ when it came out for a single-digit improvement over
PKZIP. Then, some people liked LHArc. Some people said to hell with it
and stuck with ARC. Back then, it made a material difference when your
perimary storage was an 80mb hard drive.

I remember people being upset when we went from `compress` to
`gzip` because now the file suffix was 2 characters, not 1.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Hard drive space was at a premium, too - I remember people switching archivers to ARJ when it came out for a single-digit improvement over PKZIP. Then, some people liked LHArc. Some people said to hell with it
and stuck with ARC. Back then, it made a material difference when your perimary storage was an 80mb hard drive.

Phwoar, you had an 80Mb drive? The first thing I had came with a 40, thought it would take forever to fill, coming from a land of 140k floppies. Of
course it didn't last longer than a few months.. went out and acquired a 60.. but being a PC noob, I ended up with the 40 being IDE and the 60 being MFM... traded the IDE with a friend for their MFM 40 and went from there...

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

��

It was the first form that I was aware of for sure. IIRC, there was some kind of service, or site, where I had to use uudecode on files that were not received via email, too. I may very well be remembering that wrong as I am not sure why they'd need encoding if they were not transmitted via email or usenet.

�
�There were a lot of early systems out there that were 7bit... if you tried to �push data through these you'd lose some. UUENCODEing made it all 7bit for �safe transfer. It was lossy though, a UUd file was larger than the original. ��[S=>MP]

7bit systems could be the reason right there. Thanks for pointing that out.

I do remember the UUd files often being larger than the result after
decoding.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link S 7-22-24 10:48
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

Re: Re: Computers
By: Spectre to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jul 23 2024 06:35 am

Phwoar, you had an 80Mb drive? The first thing I had came with a 40, though

The BBS started with a 32 MB drive - it filled up almost every time I did a mail run. Moved DOS to a 20 MB drive and used the 32 for the BBS. Then, got a new system with a single 80mb drive.

Backed up with one of those horribly slow Colorado tape drives.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Backed up with one of those horribly slow Colorado tape drives.

Those were the days... I used my 40Mb Coloardo, until it failed completely
and started unspooling tapes... I think we were backing up over... 8-10 tapes... taking about a half a day.

I was given some 3c503 network cards, and found it cheaper to buy a ratty ol' 286 with an HD in it, bang a second one on the other available channel and share it from there... so more than half of the data back was being done over network as well... Newer larger capacity drives remained outside my budget
for a while.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

� Hard drive space was at a premium, too - I remember people switching
� archivers to ARJ when it came out for a single-digit improvement over
� PKZIP. Then, some people liked LHArc. Some people said to hell with it
� and stuck with ARC. Back then, it made a material difference when your
� perimary storage was an 80mb hard drive.
��[PF=>S]

Or a 30MB one. ;)

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link PF 7-22-24 6:53
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

Hard drive space was at a premium, too - I remember people switch
archivers to ARJ when it came out for a single-digit improvement
PKZIP. Then, some people liked LHArc. Some people said to hell wi
and stuck with ARC. Back then, it made a material difference when
perimary storage was an 80mb hard drive.

I remember people being upset when we went from `compress` to
`gzip` because now the file suffix was 2 characters, not 1.

This was the time when you had to have all of the different compression
tools, not for the compressing, but the decompressing of files. Depending
on what you downloaded (or whatnot), as stated someone used the
compression of their choice. Fast-forward to today and now we have tools
that are "all-in-one" such as 7-Zip or WinRAR to handle compression and decompression of various formats. My how things have changed.
--Matt

--- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
* Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

THe first hard drive I ahd on my Atari 8-bit BBS was 5mb. I remember
thinking I would never fill that up... :)

--- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
* Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

Re: Re: Computers
By: Bf2K+ to Spectre on Wed Jul 24 2024 10:15 am

THe first hard drive I ahd on my Atari 8-bit BBS was 5mb. I remember thinking I would never fill that up... :)

:) My first computer was a hand-me-down 286 PC, in 1992. It had a 10MB hard drive in it, and after a short while I started to find it wasn't difficult to fill it. With PC games and utilities etc. being in zip files that could be around 500KB or 1MB or so, downloading several of those, unzipping them and installing them could easily take up the hard drive space I had. And I think running Windows was difficult due to the drive space it took. I think I ran Windows 3.1 a bit on that PC, and I must have had a bigger hard drive by then, but I don't remember specifically what I had or when I got one. I did get the motherboard & CPU upgraded to a 386SX-16 at some point, and maybe that's when I was running Windows.. Maybe at that point I got a bigger hard drive. I remember having (I think) a 40MB (or so) hard drive at some point.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

� > I still have that Whole Internet book! I think its funny that once upon a � > time, all of the internet could fit in one book.
�
� One of the first email lists I was on was "What's New on the Web...", a list of
� new web sites. The list was probably pretty much complete, encapsulated in a � weekly email list.
�
� I'm re-watching Halt and Catch Fire season 4 now - they captured that early web
� period well.
��[PF=>D]

Reading about that book, and the email list you were on, made me think of
that show and the "Comet" website, which was like an early version of Yahoo except that instead of the site crawling the web, they actually added new
sites to Comet manually.

I never realized that people actually did that.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link PF 7-23-24 9:57
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

� PF> I'm re-watching Halt and Catch Fire season 4 now - they captured that
� PF> early web period well. I think back to that time, I lived in San Francisco
�
� I should probably watch that show.. I watched the first episode (or part of � it) and for some reason didn't continue watching the show.
��[N=>PF]

I almost didn't watch it after the first one. Then I realized all of the
now retro tech they were talking about and that made it real interesting.
Some of the interpersonal stuff between characters was also interesting,
while other parts really were sort of boring. A couple of times, they even felt like they were "tacked on," like they started down a path with the
story and then decided it didn't really fit.

IIRC, I think the show was almost cancelled at least once so that could
have led to the "jumping around" affect.

I really liked it, though.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link N 7-23-24 10:25
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

�Bah.. the Internet was a 30 year old overnight success by the time 95 rolled �around. The marker for 95 was simply Windows 95, which was built to be online �at the time. 3.1 would do it of course with WinSock but it was a pita and �unreliable. 95 was the shit.. the world changed that day.
��[T=>M]

I forget how I dialed in, but the first time I used the GUI WWW was on a
386 using a Quarterdeck product called QMosaic which, IIRC, I received a
free copy of with an upgrade to QEMM and/or Desqview.

Oddly, IIRC, QMosaic didn't run under Desqview (although it may have with
DV/X, I never tried it). ;)

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link T 7-25-24 10:43
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

I was in my last year of high school in 1993. The boards in my area were still going strong. about a year later I became a FidoNet Hub and the BBS

�
� Interesting. Where in the world are you? By 93 there wasn't another BBS
� around to even get Fido from...
��[S=>T]

I got my first FIDO connection... originally a long distance call... in
2000. At that time, there were still a few other boards in Net 2320 that
were local to the hub (but also LD from me).

Before that, I had been a member of the GT Power Network, had carried
Usenet newsgroups, and had been a member of some other small to mid-sized
FTN and QWK networks.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link S 7-26-24 3:29
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

� Once I got access to the Internet, I found the technical
� discussion content I'd been looking for, and then I started
� to wonder why anyone would care about the endless flame
� wars and "big personalities" on fight-o-net. The silly
� "rules" imposed by sysops on local BBSes seemed strange once
� I realized they didn't have any content I cared about.
��[T=>PF]

While I cannot disagree that the content wasn't better for certain topics,
most Internet discussion boards and email lists have rules
that are just as restrictive... and much easier to enforce.

Usenet, OTOH, was more of a wild west that had more participants (in some areas) but also more fighting.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link T 7-30-24 2:18
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

MIKE POWELL wrote to TENSER <=-

While I cannot disagree that the content wasn't better for certain
topics, most Internet discussion boards and email lists have rules
that are just as restrictive... and much easier to enforce.

Usenet, OTOH, was more of a wild west that had more participants (in
some areas) but also more fighting.

Usenet had their restricted areas, too -- I was a telecom manager in a
former life, and comp.dcom.telecom was my goto newsgroup. It was
moderated and very informative when I was soaking up telco knowledge.

Some people started up comp.dcom.telecom.unmoderated, so you could get
your telco content straight up or unmoderated.

It's oddy to think back to a usenet that was mostly content an
slightly spammy, instead of vice versa.




... Faced with a choice, do both.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

On 30 Jul 2024 at 09:44a, MIKE POWELL pondered and said...

� Once I got access to the Internet, I found the technical
� discussion content I'd been looking for, and then I started
� to wonder why anyone would care about the endless flame
� wars and "big personalities" on fight-o-net. The silly
� "rules" imposed by sysops on local BBSes seemed strange once
� I realized they didn't have any content I cared about.
��[T=>PF]

While I cannot disagree that the content wasn't better for certain
topics, most Internet discussion boards and email lists have rules
that are just as restrictive... and much easier to enforce.

Internet "discussion boards" on the web weren't really
a thing yet when I started using the Internet. For that
matter, neither was the web. And while some mailing
lists were moderated, many were not; civility was promoted
via cultural norms, which in retrospect couldn't survive,
but at the time seemed like a huge step forward from the
"you will respect my authoritah!" of the BBS world.

Usenet, OTOH, was more of a wild west that had more participants (in some areas) but also more fighting.

See above: cultural norms that were valued by the community
as a whole kept things largely civil. They were doomed from
the start, but it was a wonderfully heady thing while they
lasted.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

tenser wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

See above: cultural norms that were valued by the community
as a whole kept things largely civil. They were doomed from
the start, but it was a wonderfully heady thing while they
lasted.

I remember an internet where people ran open SMTP servers as a courtesy
to internet.denizens, because nobody would abuse that service.

And, when testing ISDN video capability, there were test numbers that
belonged to people at private companies working at their desks. They'd
take the call, chat with you and let you know how your video/audio came
across.

It was a different world, it seemed.



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to MIKE POWELL on Thu Aug 01 2024 09:27 pm

Internet "discussion boards" on the web weren't really a thing yet when I started using the Internet. For that matter, neither was the web. And

The web was already a thing when I started using the internet (in late 1995), but I don't recall seeing discussion boards come around until years later. Currently there is only one that I'm really active on, strat-talk.com, which is about guitars (mainly the Fender Stratocaster, but others too). Years ago I used to sometimes use VWVortex (for Volkswagen cars) but haven't been active there in a long time. I was last active on VWVortex in about 2012 or 2013, and there was someone who seemed like a troll being an asshole on some of my questions & comments, and I haven't been very active there since.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

Re: Re: Computers
By: poindexter FORTRAN to tenser on Thu Aug 01 2024 07:17 am

I remember an internet where people ran open SMTP servers as a courtesy to internet.denizens, because nobody would abuse that service.

And, when testing ISDN video capability, there were test numbers that belonged to people at private companies working at their desks. They'd take the call, chat with you and let you know how your video/audio came across.

It was a different world, it seemed.

Yes. And I remember ISPs including a shell account, space for some files, and FTP & HTTP access there so you can set up a simple web page if you wanted to. Also, personal email accounts from ISPs. I'm not sure anyone uses any of that anymore, and I don't think many ISPs offer those things anymore.

I always wondered what I'd need shell access for on my ISP server, but when I still used dialup, I noticed I could sometimes get a faster download speed for a file if I first used the shell account to 'wget' the file (which would transfer to my ISP really fast), and then I'd download it from my personal space there via FTP, which would go fairly fast. That was often faster than me directly downloading the file from the site, for some reason.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

Re: Re: Computers
By: Nightfox to tenser on Thu Aug 01 2024 09:32 am

The web was already a thing when I started using the internet (in late 1995) but I don't recall seeing discussion boards come around until years later.

Man, Yahoo! groups was a thing, wasn't it? With a few minutes work you could set up a community on the web, customize a landing page, have a mailing list attached to it, and create file libraries. I personally ran a router support group, a camera community, and probably participated in 10-12 groups, mostly via email.

This was when email was the "killer app".
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

� Usenet had their restricted areas, too -- I was a telecom manager in a
� former life, and comp.dcom.telecom was my goto newsgroup. It was
� moderated and very informative when I was soaking up telco knowledge. ��[PF=>MP]

Yes, I remember those moderated groups. IIRC, sci.space.news was another
one. I *think* I had to set up moderated groups slightly different in the Waffle<>FRED<>Squish<>BBS chain I had set up, but I am not sure.

� It's oddy to think back to a usenet that was mostly content an
� slightly spammy, instead of vice versa.
��[PF=>MP]

Although they contained plenty of bad manners and trolls, even the unmoderated groups were considerably less spammy back c1993-97. I was very disappointed when I returned to reading there several years later.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link PF 7-31-24 7:05
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

Re: Re: Computers
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Thu Aug 01 2024 01:07 pm

The web was already a thing when I started using the internet (in late
1995) but I don't recall seeing discussion boards come around until years
later.

Man, Yahoo! groups was a thing, wasn't it? With a few minutes work you could set up a community on the web, customize a landing page, have a mailing list attached to it, and create file libraries. I personally ran a router support group, a camera community, and probably participated in 10-12 groups, mostly via email.

It might have been. I didn't use Yahoo! Groups much.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

� Yes. And I remember ISPs including a shell account, space for some files, and
� FTP & HTTP access there so you can set up a simple web page if you wanted to. � Also, personal email accounts from ISPs. I'm not sure anyone uses any of that
� anymore, and I don't think many ISPs offer those things anymore.
��[N=>PF]

I still have the same ISP email account I was first issued over 30 years
ago. Not sure if the web page still works or not, I would have to check.
I know they eventually took their usenet news server down, and I *think* they finally took down their shell accounts. I just tried telneting in and got no response.

They kept the shell accounts active for a long time after everyone else did away with them. You could telnet into iglou.com or shellaccess.com to
connect. The latter now resolves to an Amazon IPA.

� I always wondered what I'd need shell access for on my ISP server, but when I � still used dialup, I noticed I could sometimes get a faster download speed for
� a file if I first used the shell account to 'wget' the file (which would
� transfer to my ISP really fast), and then I'd download it from my personal
� space there via FTP, which would go fairly fast. That was often faster than me
� directly downloading the file from the site, for some reason.
��[N=>PF]

Shell accounts were useful back when there wasn't a "GUI internet" to speak
of, and were still useful even then if one had a machine that didn't
run/wasn't capable of running Windows 95. I got used to using text based interfaces at uni (often on dumb terminals) so, between that and BBSing,
the text based shell account seemed a lot easier to use.

##Mmr 2.61�. !link N 8-01-24 9:37
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

On 01 Aug 2024 at 07:17a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

It was a different world, it seemed.

Indeed it was. I miss it, but it ain't coming back.
It's a pity.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 01 Aug 2024 at 09:32a, Nightfox pondered and said...

Currently there is only one that I'm really active on,
strat-talk.com, which is about guitars (mainly the Fender Stratocaster, but others too). Years ago I used to sometimes use VWVortex (for Volkswagen cars) but haven't been active there in a long time. I was
last active on VWVortex in about 2012 or 2013, and there was someone who seemed like a troll being an asshole on some of my questions & comments, and I haven't been very active there since.

I used to be active on one dedicated to, of all things,
straight razors. Then I stopped visiting for a few years;
recently, I wanted to login and ask some question about
a particular brand of aftershave (hey, it's not as weird
as it sounds) but I found out that they'd had some kind of
serious drama involving stealing databases of users,
setting up new competing sights, etc; I could hardly
believe that people would take something as trivial as
straight razors so seriously.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to Nightfox on Sat Aug 03 2024 12:27:35

Hi, tenser.

I could hardly believe that people would take something as trivial as straight razors so seriously.

This made me chuckle, partly because it made me imagine an interview quote along the lines of "I could hardly believe people would take straight razors so seriously - tenser, decade long member of straight razor forum" but moreover that this kind of thing seems to happen with ridiculous frequency.

Whenever I feel like I'm "seriously into" something, a few minutes online shows me that, relatively speaking, my interest is pretty casual. In most cases there are vehemently opposed factions treating some arbitrary matter of principle like it's of life-or-death importance.

I think people just have this in-built desire to be the king of some kind of castle, even if it's a crappy one, and that part just goes out of control on the Internet :)

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to Nightfox on Sat Aug 03 2024 12:27 pm

I used to be active on one dedicated to, of all things, straight razors. Then I stopped visiting for a few years; recently, I wanted to login and ask some question about a particular brand of aftershave (hey, it's not as weird

If it's not badgerandblade.com, I'm sure if I logged in again after 10+ years I'd find the same drama. I used to read there when I was getting into wet shaving, then I bought an old Gillette safety razor at an antique store, a lifetime supply of blades on eBay, a mug and cheap brush, and haven't felt the need to talk about any of it since. :)
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

This was when email was the "killer app".

Eudora!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

On 03 Aug 2024 at 04:42p, Bob Worm pondered and said...

Whenever I feel like I'm "seriously into" something, a few minutes
online shows me that, relatively speaking, my interest is pretty casual. In most cases there are vehemently opposed factions treating some arbitrary matter of principle like it's of life-or-death importance.

Heh, that's true. "And now, I'd like to discuss amateur
radio...."

I think people just have this in-built desire to be the king of some
kind of castle, even if it's a crappy one, and that part just goes out
of control on the Internet :)

Yeah. People are strange. Some of the straight razor people
were _very_ strange. I remember one guy posting that he'd sit
in his car sharpening his razors while his wife was grocery
shopping. I can't imagine what the people walking by in the
parking lot thought about that....

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 03 Aug 2024 at 08:43a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to Nightfox on Sat Aug 03 2024 12:27 pm

I used to be active on one dedicated to, of all things, straight razors Then I stopped visiting for a few years; recently, I wanted to login an some question about a particular brand of aftershave (hey, it's not as

If it's not badgerandblade.com, I'm sure if I logged in again after 10+ years I'd find the same drama. I used to read there when I was getting into wet shaving, then I bought an old Gillette safety razor at an
antique store, a lifetime supply of blades on eBay, a mug and cheap
brush, and haven't felt the need to talk about any of it since. :)

Yeah! The one I was thinking of wasn't B&B; it was
Straight Razor Place. It was occasionally useful for
getting some advice when I was getting into it, but
I didn't feel the need to post every single time I
shaved. And when I was in the Marines, that was daily
(facial irritation from daily shaving was _why_ I
started down the path of using a straight razor in the
first place, btw).

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to Bob Worm on Mon Aug 05 2024 00:28:15

Heh, that's true. "And now, I'd like to discuss amateur
radio...."

Heha - this one hits home. I got my Amateur Radio license during lockdown and upgraded it to the middle tier, but for every lovely helpful person I ran into on that journey there was another, obnoxious one who looked down on anyone who had the audacity to be trying to learn the hobby rather than a multi-decade veteran with thousands invested in kit.

So, Yeah, I didn't even bother claiming my intermediate callsign and the handheld radio has been unused in my glovebox for about 3 years. Meanwhile the question keeps coming up of why amateur radio is dying out...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to get upset if some stranger is rude or mean to me. I just don't find it fun so why would I bother turning my radio back on?

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

I think people just have this in-built desire to be the king of some kind castle, even if it's a crappy one, and that part just goes out of control the Internet :)

The effort put into an argument is inversely proportional to the stakes. :D

-̹�lian

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Archaic Binary (21:2/132)

Re: Re: Computers
By: halian to Bob Worm on Sun Aug 04 2024 20:12:10

The effort put into an argument is inversely proportional to the stakes. :D

That's so universally true I can't believe I never noticed...

Thanks for changing my life :)

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

StormTrooper wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

This was when email was the "killer app".

Eudora!

I know I've told this story before, but I worked in a company with a
mixture of Mac and Windows PCs back in the '90s. We used a LAN-based
email system called Quickmail and needed 3 or 4 servers to support 70
clients.

I bought a site license for Eudora 2.2, set up a BSD box on an unused
desktop and moved all of our mail services over to it. Figured out how
to push out address books, built auto-responders when Eudora 3.0 came
out for the customer service team, and generally loved it.

I remember the sound of a room full of Eudora clients chiming when mail arrived...



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

BY: Bob Worm (21:1/205)

|11BW|09> |10So, Yeah, I didn't even bother claiming my intermediate callsign and the|07
|11BW|09> |10handheld radio has been unused in my glovebox for about 3 years.|07
|11BW|09> |10Meanwhile the question keeps coming up of why amateur radio is dying|07
|11BW|09> |10out...|07
Yeah, amatuer radio has more of a potential to grow than bbsing.


--- WWIV 5.8.1.3688[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

I remember the sound of a room full of Eudora clients chiming when mail arrived...

Similarly but unrelated to some early MUD days... they weren't filtering ctl-chrs, you could tell who was playing by "shout what ctl-g ctl-g" and wait for the terminals to ring :)

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Utopian Galt wrote to Bob Worm <=-

Yeah, amatuer radio has more of a potential to grow than bbsing.

I'm surprised CB radio isn't hanging on more with the truckers. I took a
long trip up I-80 and was expecting to see CB antennas on trucks like I
did when I was a kid - only the odd truck had a visible CB antenna.

It seems like such a great way to pass time with whoever's around you
when you're on the road - especially when trying to get traffic and road conditions.



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Computers
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Utopian Galt on Tue Aug 06 2024 07:27 am

I'm surprised CB radio isn't hanging on more with the truckers. I took a long trip up I-80 and was expecting to see CB antennas on trucks like I did when I was a kid - only the odd truck had a visible CB antenna.

It seems like such a great way to pass time with whoever's around you when you're on the road - especially when trying to get traffic and road conditions.

Maybe truckers have other things now with smartphones. I wonder if there's a smartphone app that provides something similar to CB radio, with different voice chat channels on some central server(s).. Also, I imagine there are smartphone apps that could provide voice-controlled games you could play (trivia games, Q&A guessing games, etc.).

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

Re: Re: Computers
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 06 2024 08:18 am

Maybe truckers have other things now with smartphones. I wonder if there's smartphone app that provides something similar to CB radio, with different voice chat channels on some central server(s).. Also, I imagine there are smartphone apps that could provide voice-controlled games you could play (trivia games, Q&A guessing games, etc.).

WHILE DRIVING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF METAL ON THE HIGHWAY?
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Computers
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Tue Aug 06 2024 03:50 pm

Maybe truckers have other things now with smartphones. I wonder if there's
smartphone app that provides something similar to CB radio, with different
voice chat channels on some central server(s).. Also, I imagine there are
smartphone apps that could provide voice-controlled games you could play
(trivia games, Q&A guessing games, etc.).

WHILE DRIVING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF METAL ON THE HIGHWAY?

Wouldn't it be the same issue with using a CB radio?

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

WHILE DRIVING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF METAL ON THE HIGHWAY?

Wouldn't it be the same issue with using a CB radio?

You leave a CB on channel 17 or 19, and raise the microphone to your
mouth to speak. You don't take your eyes off the road.



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Computers
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed Aug 07 2024 07:54 am

WHILE DRIVING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF METAL ON THE HIGHWAY?

Wouldn't it be the same issue with using a CB radio?

You leave a CB on channel 17 or 19, and raise the microphone to your mouth to speak. You don't take your eyes off the road.

That would be basically the same with a voice-activated game on a smartphone. And it might even be better with a smartphone, since you wouldn't even need to hold anything in your hands.. You can often say "Hey Google" and your smartphone will respond, and if there are voice-activated games, you wouldn't need to hold anything in your hands.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

� > Maybe truckers have other things now with smartphones. I wonder if there's � > smartphone app that provides something similar to CB radio, with different � > voice chat channels on some central server(s).. Also, I imagine there are � > smartphone apps that could provide voice-controlled games you could play
� > (trivia games, Q&A guessing games, etc.).
�
� WHILE DRIVING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF METAL ON THE HIGHWAY?
��[PF=>N]

He didn't suggest it was a *good* idea. ;)

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link PF 8-06-24 15:50
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

On 04 Aug 2024 at 10:16p, Bob Worm pondered and said...

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to Bob Worm on Mon Aug 05 2024 00:28:15

Heh, that's true. "And now, I'd like to discuss amateur
radio...."

Heha - this one hits home. I got my Amateur Radio license during
lockdown and upgraded it to the middle tier, but for every lovely
helpful person I ran into on that journey there was another, obnoxious
one who looked down on anyone who had the audacity to be trying to learn the hobby rather than a multi-decade veteran with thousands invested in kit.

Hear, hear. Also, the emphasis on HF as the end-all, be-all
of the hobby. "Why aren't people upgrading?!" When I suggest
that people ask new hams why they don't upgrade, they just
look at me funny. It's like a completely foreign concept to
them or something.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 04 Aug 2024 at 08:02p, Utopian Galt pondered and said...

BY: Bob Worm (21:1/205)

So, Yeah, I didn't even bother claiming my intermediate callsign and t handheld radio has been unused in my glovebox for about 3 years. Meanwhile the question keeps coming up of why amateur radio is dying out...

Yeah, amatuer radio has more of a potential to grow than bbsing.

Indeed. I try to tell people that the cool thing about amateur
radio is that you get access to spectrum. Most engineers I know
just don't care. LoRa and Zigbee sucked a lot of air out of the
room, and the attitude and backwardness of the hobby turn off the
rest. Encryption is often given as a reason for a lack of growth.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Re: Computers
By: tenser to Bob Worm on Thu Aug 08 2024 19:52:49

Hear, hear. Also, the emphasis on HF as the end-all, be-all
of the hobby. "Why aren't people upgrading?!" When I suggest
that people ask new hams why they don't upgrade, they just
look at me funny. It's like a completely foreign concept to
them or something.

I don't have a big enough garden to run a 20m wire antenna down it, the neighbours would probably have something to say about a big pole holding it up, too. My wife would *definitely* have *a lot* to say about any kind of aerial going up. So I'd have to go with some kind of serious compromise antenna.

Given that, I'm not about to throw a couple of grand at a radio, tuner, test kit, etc. just to see if I get on with it - especially since a lot of HF work just seems to be hello, swap call sign / location / signal strength, maybe kit list, then goodbye. Everyone is entitled to enjoy radio in their own way but that's not my kind of fun.

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

Wouldn't it be the same issue with using a CB radio?

You leave a CB on channel 17 or 19, and raise the microphone to your
mouth to speak. You don't take your eyes off the road.

Keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel...

Was told a story once, by an OLD sales rep... If you're going to drink and drive, only drink long neck bottles, so you can still see the road.... Was well before any breathalysers.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

I don't have a big enough garden to run a 20m wire antenna down it, the

Just go vertical and call it a flag pole :P

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: Computers
By: StormTrooper to Bob Worm on Thu Aug 08 2024 08:57:11

Hi, StormTrooper.

Just go vertical and call it a flag pole :P

Hmm... My wife once commented that my parents were mad for letting me put an 18' vertical on the side of their house when I was a teenager. Something tells me that's not going to "fly" :)

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

Just go vertical and call it a flag pole :P

Hmm... My wife once commented that my parents were mad for letting me
put an 18' vertical on the side of their house when I was a teenager. Something tells me that's not going to "fly" :)

A washing line perhaps then?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

On 08 Aug 2024 at 09:19a, Bob Worm pondered and said...

Given that, I'm not about to throw a couple of grand at a radio, tuner, test kit, etc. just to see if I get on with it - especially since a lot
of HF work just seems to be hello, swap call sign / location / signal strength, maybe kit list, then goodbye. Everyone is entitled to enjoy radio in their own way but that's not my kind of fun.

Exactly! It boggles my mind the number of people who
just can't understand that.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Given that, I'm not about to throw a couple of grand at a radio, tuner, te kit, etc. just to see if I get on with it - especially since a lot of HF w just seems to be hello, swap call sign / location / signal strength, maybe list, then goodbye. Everyone is entitled to enjoy radio in their own way b that's not my kind of fun.

This is the boat I'm in. I think ham radio is pretty neat, and got the Amateur Radio badge when I was in the Boy Scouts, but I don't have the money or brain space to actually get into amateur radio.

-̹�lian

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Archaic Binary * bbs.archaicbinary.net (21:2/132)

� As much as we love Linux, there are "too many" variations for it to take
� hold. It does well in the server arena, but not the desktop.
��[M=>PF]

I disagree. I have been using Linux (usually Debian) for ~24 years now as
my primary desktop OS. I have not had a Windows machine since the XP days
and I am able to do just about everything I want to with linux.

It emulates DOS quite well, too.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link M 8-11-24 10:10
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

� On this last piece of your post: MS didn't "establish itself"... they did some
� kind of shady move with IBM to have their OS pre-installed in OEM computers for
� a good few years, until it was irreversible. I know american folks (coming from
� "the land of opportunity and the free and brave), see these 'corporate moves' � as not so much as "shady", but you gotta give that that's not quite "squeaky � clean"...
��[M=>M]

This American saw them as shady, and still does.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link M 8-11-24 15:42
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

MIKE POWELL wrote to MHANSEL739 <=-

| As much as we love Linux, there are "too many" variations for it to take
| hold. It does well in the server arena, but not the desktop.

I disagree. I have been using Linux (usually Debian) for ~24 years now
as my primary desktop OS. I have not had a Windows machine since the
XP days and I am able to do just about everything I want to with linux.

Exactly the same here, other than with Slackware instead of Debian.
Exactly.

It emulates DOS quite well, too.

It does everything well. :-)



... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

I disagree. I have been using Linux (usually Debian) for ~24 years now
my primary desktop OS. I have not had a Windows machine since the XP d
and I am able to do just about everything I want to with linux.

That is fair. But are we the execptions to the "rule" - as we are more technical than others? I have a Linux distro on one of my laptops, but do
not use it. The majority of the things I do are MS based. I know you can
do almost everything with some alternate software on Linux.
Lost my train of thought. I suppose, is it that many of the consumers are unwilling to take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something "different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly
technical"?
--Matt

--- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
* Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

Re: Re: Computers
By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Tue Aug 13 2024 07:42 am

take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something "different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly technical"?

I feel like Linux has always been fairly technical, but I think it has gotten better in recent years with the various GUI window managers and desktop environments. Depending on the Linux distro, I think the user experience can be somewhat similar to Mac OS now, where you can use GUI applications for many things, but also go to the command line to do some tasks if you want to.

These days, my favorite Linux distro is Linux Mint. I've been using it on a secondary PC (my BBS PC) since about 2015, and it has always been fairly easy to maintain and update, and has been very stable. Linux Mint is available in editions with Cinnamon, Xfce, and I think one or two other GUI environments. I like the Cinnamon and Xfce environments; I've been using the one with Xfce on my BBS PC, and my main PC is set up to dual-boot between Windows and Linux Mint with Cinnamon.

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

On 13 Aug 24 12:11:52 Nightfox wrote...

Re: Re: Computers By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Tue Aug 13
2024 07:42 am

take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something
"different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly technical"?

I feel like Linux has always been fairly technical, but I think it
has gotten better in recent years with the various GUI window
managers and desktop environments. Depending on the Linux distro, I
think the user experience can be somewhat similar to Mac OS now,
where you can use GUI applications for many things, but also go to
the command line to do some tasks if you want to.

These days, my favorite Linux distro is Linux Mint. I've been using
it on a secondary PC (my BBS PC) since about 2015, and it has always
been fairly easy to maintain and update, and has been very stable.
Linux Mint is available in editions with Cinnamon, Xfce, and I think
one or two other GUI environments. I like the Cinnamon and Xfce environments; I've been using the one with Xfce on my BBS PC, and my
main PC is set up to dual-boot between Windows and Linux Mint with Cinnamon.

Nightfox --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

To which Bf2K+ replies...

I have just setup Linux Mint (Xfce) on one of my laptops to start playing
with it. I really like it so far. When I retire in the next couple of
years, I want to completely remove myself from Micro$oft systems and go elsewhere (if I can). Due to work requirements, I can't do it right now
but I am definitely thinking about it already...

--- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
* Origin: STar Fleet HQ - Real Atari! bbs.sfhqbbs.org:5983 (21:3/171.0)

� That is fair. But are we the execptions to the "rule" - as we are more
� technical than others? I have a Linux distro on one of my laptops, but do
� not use it. The majority of the things I do are MS based. I know you can
� do almost everything with some alternate software on Linux.
� Lost my train of thought. I suppose, is it that many of the consumers are
� unwilling to take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something
� "different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly
� technical"?
��[M=>MP]

That last bit could be. I think the main thing is that when they go to buy
a computer (and IF they ever do... a lot of individuals have moved to cell phones and pads now), Microsoft is very likely what is on it.

In order to find something with linux on it, they either have to look specifically for it or install it themselves.

I am not so certain it has as much to do with linux software being
different or even more technical as it does with linux being less likely to
be pre-installed.

Microsoft may no longer have the monopolistic deals with PC makers
regarding preinstallation of their software (or maybe they do?), but I
think the damage was long done before that was stopped.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link M 8-13-24 7:42
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* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

Re: Re: Computers
By: Bf2K+ to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2024 03:41 pm

I have just setup Linux Mint (Xfce) on one of my laptops to start playing with it. I really like it so far. When I retire in the next couple of years, I want to completely remove myself from Micro$oft systems and go elsewhere (if I can). Due to work requirements, I can't do it right now but I am definitely thinking about it already...

I've considered going entirely to Linux, and I probably could except for some software I liked to use which isn't available for Linux. A couple of those are photo & video editing tools (Topaz Labs Video AI and Topaz Gigapixel), and I do also like to play PC games sometimes.. There are some PC games I like which aren't available for Linux, such as Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020, though it looks like there is an increasing number of PC games that have Linux native versions available, and Windows versions that might run in Linux with Proton or Wine.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Computers
By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Tue Aug 13 2024 07:42 am

That is fair. But are we the execptions to the "rule" - as we are more technical than others? I have a Linux distro on one of my laptops, but do not use it. The majority of the things I do are MS based. I know you can
do almost everything with some alternate software on Linux.
Lost my train of thought. I suppose, is it that many of the consumers are unwilling to take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something "different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly
technical"?
--Matt

I think the public does not know what Linux is at all. It does not have really a reputation.

Desktop Linux does great in two scenarios. The first one is when you set it up for some IT illiterate who knows nothing about computers and only wants to watch foal videos online. This is the sort of person who would buy an old Windows computer and ask the store guy to set office for her. Usually you can set Linux for these people and they won't notice the difference since they never attempt any administrative task on their own, regardless of OS.

The second one is when power users set it up for themselves. Power users will do lots of horrible things to their computer trying to achieve weird results, but since they are the sort who loves reading documentation and fixing and tweaking things, the fact an OS can get more technical than others is a non-issue. In fact, it is a bonus.

Heck, my videogaming group uses an old Linux graming rig. The owner squarely falls in the power user category. He hates Linux (because he hates everything and everybody, actually) but when asked why doesn't he migrate, he answers "This crap allows me to run modern stuff without buying new hardware."

The people who really get burned by Linux are the ones in the middle of the road: people who manages "ok" with computers but can't bother doing their own research for solving problems. This is the sort of people who expects to be able to administrate their own computers but don't want to put any work on it. They will run into an issue sooner or later, do a quick web search for it, realize the issue involves a terminal emulator, and switch back to Windows.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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I am not so certain it has as much to do with linux software being different or even more technical as it does with linux being less likel
be pre-installed.

Microsoft may no longer have the monopolistic deals with PC makers regarding preinstallation of their software (or maybe they do?), but I think the damage was long done before that was stopped.

Mike, I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you go to a store
(or Amazon for that matter), the computers that you find to buy all have Windows installed or are MacOS. Those are the 2 most likely choices a
user has. And their purchase is based on a need - a need to get a
computer that is working right now, and taking the time to install a new
OS is not a top priority.

Yes, the damage has been done. The end users are going to buy what they
buy and use it as is (aside from maybe adding some additional software).
They want easy and convenient.
--Matt

--- RATSoft/FIDO v09.14.95 [JetMail 1.01]
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Re: Re: Computers
By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Thu Aug 15 2024 06:59 am

Microsoft may no longer have the monopolistic deals with PC makers
regarding preinstallation of their software (or maybe they do?), but I
think the damage was long done before that was stopped.

Mike, I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you go to a store (or Amazon for that matter), the computers that you find to buy all have Windows installed or are MacOS. Those are the 2 most likely choices a user has. And their purchase is based on a need - a need to get a computer that is working right now, and taking the time to install a new OS is not a top priority.

Yes, the damage has been done. The end users are going to buy what they buy and use it as is (aside from maybe adding some additional software). They want easy and convenient.

These days, I think another factor is that there are a lot of people using tablets and smartphones for a lot of tasks, and retailers selling computers might just be putting less effort into the desktop/laptop computers they sell, because those aren't selling as much as they did years ago.

Nightfox
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Mike, I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you go to a store (or Amazon for that matter), the computers that you find to buy all have Windows installed or are MacOS. Those are the 2 most likely choices a
user has. And their purchase is based on a need - a need to get a
computer that is working right now, and taking the time to install a new OS is not a top priority.

There are some locals that will flog you a new system with some distro linux on it, although they tend to be few and far between. The other thing MicroSloth and Apple have going for them is consistency... you can pretty much be certain what works now, will work in the next version... Not sure if its still the case, but it used to feel like reinventing the wheel every time you got a new linux install.. with whatever desktop manager was the flavour of the month.

The other thing is, for better or worse Windoze remains the lowest common denominator, so its more than likely going to do what some 95% of consumers are going to ask of it, and they won't look any further.

ST

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Re: Re: Computers
By: StormTrooper to Mhansel739 on Fri Aug 16 2024 03:09 pm

The other thing is, for better or worse Windoze remains the lowest common denominator, so its more than likely going to do what some 95% of consumers are going to ask of it, and they won't look any further.

In the 90s, I was hopeful that OS/2 might somehow overtake Windows, but I think there was a certain point in the early-mid 90s that once Windows became common enough, it already had enough momentum to make it domiant enough that other operating systems would have a hard time gaining traction.

Later, I tried BeOS and I really liked it, but it was the late 90s when BeOS was ported to PCs, and I think it was already too late by then. I thought BeOS was really user-friendly, looked nice, and worked well though.. It would have been cool to see BeOS as a standard desktop OS.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
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These days, I think another factor is that there are a lot of people us tablets and smartphones for a lot of tasks, and retailers selling compu might just be putting less effort into the desktop/laptop computers the sell, because those aren't selling as much as they did years ago.

Nightfox

That is a good point. I know my dad has moved strictly to an iPad and
iPhone for his use of computing technology. My step-mom got a
hand-me-down laptop from me (with Windows 11), but she is still
"committed" to using a "computer". My wife only uses her computer (a
MacBook) to do homework on, or her work laptop for work-related things.
Yes, most definitely people are moving away from the use of a "real
computer", reducing the efforts put into them by manufacturers. And the
way some of the tablets are going, the lines are being blurred between a laptop/notebook and a tablet. Hell, my Kindle Fire 11 Max has a keyboard
and stylus that can be added to it.
--Matt

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�There are some locals that will flog you a new system with some distro linux on
�it, although they tend to be few and far between. The other thing MicroSloth �and Apple have going for them is consistency... you can pretty much be certain �what works now, will work in the next version... Not sure if its still the �case, but it used to feel like reinventing the wheel every time you got a new �linux install.. with whatever desktop manager was the flavour of the month. ��[S=>M]

Most distros (at least the debian based ones I have tried) have become pretty good at picking a default desktop manager and sticking to it.

Most of the applications tend to remain intact. If you do a fresh install, there are still times where some may disappear. I like using the medit
text editor on my desktop, but it went out of support a debian version or
two ago. I still have it on a box that was upgraded but it is missing by default on any fresh install.

I can remember having to change most of my "favorite applications" every time
I upgraded, so being down to one that disappeared over the last two
upgrades is an improvement.

�The other thing is, for better or worse Windoze remains the lowest common �denominator, so its more than likely going to do what some 95% of consumers are
�going to ask of it, and they won't look any further.
��[S=>M]

Yes, it is likely what they are using at work, for one.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link S 8-16-24 15:09
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� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

I don't know why but, in comparison to today's internet and social
media, I feel now that we are a lot less likely to be exposed to rampant misinformation back then.

i agree! :D

--mary4 (Victoria Crenshaw) the 286 enthusiast

... DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something...

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Datanet BBS | telnet://datanetbbs.net:23 (21:1/166)

SQZ, SqueezeIt gave exactly the same file size as ARJ a -jm but I just used it to be contrary and had all the BBS archives converted to it :)
It was never popular anywhere else in my memory...

Interesting. I did not know that one.

I had ZIP,RAR, LHA (thanks to Amigans), ARC (Atari), ARJ, ACE was the best one in my case when I was often comparing compression ratios. Also not that popular in the later years. ZIP was conquered by RAR thanks to its easy interface to create 1.44 partial archives to bundle something bigger and distribute via floppies.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Nightfox wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

I don't know why but, in comparison to today's internet and social media, I feel now that we are a lot less likely to be exposed to rampant misinformation back then.

I've heard people say that misinformation has multiplied as more and
more people have gotten internet access. Even though many people have access to factual information online, it's also very easy for people to spread misinformation to a lot of people online.

Heard this the other day - was meant as a joke, but it's so very
true too... "The very parents who told us not to believe everything
we heard on television now believe everything they read on Facebook."


... Oklahoma: Our Tornadoes Go To F6!!
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MIKE POWELL wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-

I feel like that has to do with people gravitating to social media
sites, especially those that echo their own beliefs, for social interaction that they don't get on news sites.

People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.




... No Purchase Required. Details in package.
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to StormTrooper <=-

I know I've told this story before, but I worked in a company with a mixture of Mac and Windows PCs back in the '90s. We used a LAN-based
email system called Quickmail and needed 3 or 4 servers to support 70 clients.

The school I work at - when I started they were using QuickMail.
They didn't have 'internet mail' unless it was manually turned
on by the guy I replaced. I quickly changed that, and migrated
over to the official state hosted emails supplied by our ISP.


... The insurace guy to Adam & Eve: I see you're not covered.
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Utopian Galt <=-

Utopian Galt wrote to Bob Worm <=-

Yeah, amatuer radio has more of a potential to grow than bbsing.

I'm surprised CB radio isn't hanging on more with the truckers. I took
a long trip up I-80 and was expecting to see CB antennas on trucks like
I did when I was a kid - only the odd truck had a visible CB antenna.

It seems like such a great way to pass time with whoever's around you
when you're on the road - especially when trying to get traffic and
road conditions.

I've been known to talk on 146.52 while traveling, and even once
when I was looking for why the traffic wasn't moving. Got the info,
make a quick U-Turn and took a detour...

Have thought of getting a little CB rig for travel, but figure not
worth it in the long run... Would rather try to chat on the
dead repeaters along the way. ;-) Every now and again it
works. :-)


... Okay, who swiped the Crime Watch sign?!?!
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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I'm surprised CB radio isn't hanging on more with the truckers. I took a long trip up I-80 and was expecting to see CB antennas on trucks like I did when I was a kid - only the odd truck had a visible CB antenna.

It seems like such a great way to pass time with whoever's around you when you're on the road - especially when trying to get traffic and road conditions.

Maybe truckers have other things now with smartphones. I wonder if there's a smartphone app that provides something similar to CB radio,
with different voice chat channels on some central server(s).. Also, I imagine there are smartphone apps that could provide voice-controlled games you could play (trivia games, Q&A guessing games, etc.).

Good points... And with GPS's re-routing you around bad traffic
conditions, even that is less of an urgent need. :-)

Add on hands free calling and you just talk to your heart's content
with people you already know.

Of course you don't meet new people, but still... :-)



... To boldly go where no sane man has any business...
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tenser wrote to Bob Worm <=-

Hear, hear. Also, the emphasis on HF as the end-all, be-all
of the hobby. "Why aren't people upgrading?!" When I suggest
that people ask new hams why they don't upgrade, they just
look at me funny. It's like a completely foreign concept to
them or something.

HF is good, yes, but it could be the death knoll of local
repeaters. I have a friend that FINALLY got her ticket and
the people in her area - in the clubs I mean - don't talk
on the repeaters because they are busy with HF. :-) But
they don't talk to the new ones who don't know anything
about HF, and think the bands are just dead.

I don't know what the solution is... :-) I just like
to talk. LOL



... No armadillos were harmed in the making of this tagline.
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Bob Worm wrote to tenser <=-

Given that, I'm not about to throw a couple of grand at a radio, tuner, test kit, etc. just to see if I get on with it - especially since a lot
of HF work just seems to be hello, swap call sign / location / signal strength, maybe kit list, then goodbye. Everyone is entitled to enjoy radio in their own way but that's not my kind of fun.

I have my general, but I'm in the same boat as you (hey - scoot
over! hihi). I don't do contesting because I like to CONVERSE. :-)


... ACRONYM: Abbreviated Coded Rendition Of Name Yielding Meaning
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halian wrote to Bob Worm <=-

This is the boat I'm in. I think ham radio is pretty neat, and got the Amateur Radio badge when I was in the Boy Scouts, but I don't have the money or brain space to actually get into amateur radio.

Can't help with the brain space, but IF there are active repeaters
in your area, and you're fairly close, you can get a radio for
less than $30 US that will get you on and talking!



... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"
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JIMMY ANDERSON (21:2/127) wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.

I try my best not to push people away, but still try to be authentic without censoring myself too much.

... ... A little rebellion now & then is necessary medicine for a healthy
ummin
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52


--- WWIV 5.9.03748[Windows]
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� MP> I feel like that has to do with people gravitating to social media
� MP> sites, especially those that echo their own beliefs, for social
� MP> interaction that they don't get on news sites.
�
� People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
� too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.
��[JA=>MP]

Very true, very true!

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link JA 5-03-25 22:39
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

� Remember bloatware? You'd buy that $300 Packard Bell or HP machine,
� and it woud be preinstalled with a TON of stuff that you had to
� delete to get system space and processing back. I found out that
� the companies PAID to have their stuff installed, and that's how
� they could sell the PC's so cheaply.
��[JA=>M]

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty
much had to include it on their machines.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61�. !link JA 5-03-25 23:54
---
� BgNet 1.0�12 � moe's tavern * 1-502-875-8938 * moetiki.ddns.net:27
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (21:1/175)

Re: Re: Computers
By: MIKE POWELL to JIMMY ANDERSON on Sun May 04 2025 08:44 am

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

I heard that Microsoft would charge PC makers a Windows license for each PC they sold, even if they installed a different OS on a PC. Seems a bit sketchy to me.. But I've heard some people say that was volume licensing, which may be a somewhat different thing.

Nightfox
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Utopian Galt wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

JIMMY ANDERSON (21:2/127) wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.

I try my best not to push people away, but still try to be authentic without censoring myself too much.

Agreed. Tell the truth always, but do it diplomatically. :-)



... It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a
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MIKE POWELL wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-

| Remember bloatware? You'd buy that $300 Packard Bell or HP machine,
| and it woud be preinstalled with a TON of stuff that you had to
| delete to get system space and processing back. I found out that
| the companies PAID to have their stuff installed, and that's how
| they could sell the PC's so cheaply.

`-[JA=>M]

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

Or else they could't be competitive with their prices. Yep.


... Chain Tagline - Stolen 385 times - Add one when stolen.
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I've heard people say that misinformation has multiplied as more and more people have gotten internet access. Even though many people have

It just makes sense that the more information you have, the more
likely a lot of it will be misinformation. We are exposed to
so much info now, there is a lot of misinformation. It just goes
along with the good information.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
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Jimmy Anderson wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

Or else they could't be competitive with their prices. Yep.

The legal rationale was that people were going to pirate Windows anyway,
so punish the computer manufacturers - even if they were going to use
OS/2 or Linux or whatever.

Then, Windows got so big that they required makers to purchase a license
per system or they wouldn't sell you any license at all.

Let's not forget people who went through the hoops of trying to get a
refund on a shrinkwrap license of Windows when they installed another
OS.

It was the same rationale that the RIAA used to get the courts to order
makers of blank CDs to pay into a fund for the recording industry
because users could possibly use blank CDs to copy music (which was
legal under copyright, but details...)

Whether or not the artists harmed by piracy ever saw any of those funds
remains to be seen, of course.





--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Alonzo wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

I've heard people say that misinformation has multiplied as more and more people have gotten internet access. Even though many people

have

It just makes sense that the more information you have, the more
likely a lot of it will be misinformation. We are exposed to
so much info now, there is a lot of misinformation. It just goes
along with the good information.

Or to put it another way, the percentage may be the same, but when the
total number goes WAY up, so does the number of 'mis.' :-)


... Do mimes listen to blank tapes?
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

Then, Windows got so big that they required makers to purchase a
license per system or they wouldn't sell you any license at all.

Let's not forget people who went through the hoops of trying to get a refund on a shrinkwrap license of Windows when they installed another
OS.

It was the same rationale that the RIAA used to get the courts to order makers of blank CDs to pay into a fund for the recording industry
because users could possibly use blank CDs to copy music (which was
legal under copyright, but details...)

Ah - the old 'but you COULD do it, so let's make sure you pay for it
anyway' rationale...

Reminds me of the John Boy & Billy Playhouse where the lady was in the
boat and the game warden said he was going to give her a ticket for
fishing without a license. "But I'm not fishing - I'm just here to
relax."

His reply was that she had the equipment and the opportunity, so how did
he know she wasn't going to start? She said that was fine - but she wanted
to file a report of sexual harrasment. When he said he didn't do that at
all, she said, "but you have the equipment and the opportunity. How do
I know you're not going to start?"


... Almost had a psychic girlfriend - she left me before we met.
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That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

I heard that Microsoft would charge PC makers a Windows license for each PC they sold, even if they installed a different OS on a PC. Seems a bit sketchy
to me.. But I've heard some people say that was volume licensing, which may b
a somewhat different thing.

That is what I also heard. I am pretty sure it was correct but, like you, I
am not sure if that was by volume or per individual PC.

I also always thought it sketchy but, if it was by volume, maybe less so.
I ordered a PC in 1991 and asked for it to be shipped without Windows 3.1.
The cost was the same. ;)

---
� SLMR 2.1a � "Wanna give Honest Abe another term in the Oval Office?"
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